Not sure about a "majority," but I know at least a few witnesses that don't believe certain WBTS doctrines. In particular, the teaching that only JWs will make it through Armageddon.
Until recently, my wife (who was raised a witness) did not believe that the Society teaches that only JWs will be saved at Armageddon. I showed her the WT articles that clearly state this belief. She was a little surprised, and said there's no way that can be true. I agreed and said that I was just repeating what the "faithful and discreet slave" is teaching.
I know other witnesses who are not aware of--or don't believe--this doctrine. Interestingly, they still profess that this is the true religion.
Olin Moyles Ghost
JoinedPosts by Olin Moyles Ghost
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Do You Believe The Majority of JWs Believe Everything They Are Taught?
by minimus inyears ago, nearly every jw were true believers.
even if they were considered weak in the faith, they accepted all the beliefs and views from "mother".
do you think today's witnesses accept everything as being the truth?.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
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Lawsuit against a brother - grounds for disfellowshipping?
by Olin Moyles Ghost inin 1 corinthians 6:1-7, paul is clearly not in favor of christians suing each other.
from my experience in the organization, suing a fellow witness is not allowed.
my question is whether this is a disfellowshipping offense.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Thanks for the responses.
I'm not personally interested in suing anyone in the congregation; I was just wondering whether this was considered a disfellowshipping offense. My understanding was that it is not, and the responses seem to back that up.
So, I wonder what would happen if a practicing witness sued the Society over, say, child sex abuse. First, would this be considered "suing a brother"? Second, would it be a disfellowshipping offense (e.g., apostacy, causing divisions, or the like)?
Or, what if a JW attorney or paralegal assisted in representing a plaintiff in a lawsuit against the Society; would that JW legal professional be open to judicial action?
My opinion is that, technically, suing the WBTS would not fall under 1 Cor. 6 because a corporation is not a "brother." But, realistically, they can DF you for anything they want under such charges as "loose conduct" or "causing divisions."
Any thoughts/opinions? -
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Lawsuit against a brother - grounds for disfellowshipping?
by Olin Moyles Ghost inin 1 corinthians 6:1-7, paul is clearly not in favor of christians suing each other.
from my experience in the organization, suing a fellow witness is not allowed.
my question is whether this is a disfellowshipping offense.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
In 1 Corinthians 6:1-7, Paul is clearly not in favor of Christians suing each other. From my experience in the organization, suing a fellow witness is not allowed. My question is whether this is a disfellowshipping offense. Anyone with personal/second-hand knowledge on this? Thanks.
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The cry of "Peace and Security"
by Olin Moyles Ghost inanyone who has been associated with the witnesses for any period of time is familiar with 1 thess.
5:2 - "whenever it is that they are saying: peace and security!
then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Dinah, I think I may have seen that History channel program, too. If it's the one I'm thinking of, it mentioned the Second Aventists' great disappointment of 1844. I was disappointed that they didn't mention how the JWs are an offshoot from those Adventists. Also, after I got done explaining the "new light" re: the generation to Mrs. Ghost, she came to the conclusion on her own that we were probably going to die in this system (we're in our 30s). I, of course, agreed with her. We are. And I'm ok with that.
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Transcript of U.S. v. Rutherford, et al.?
by Olin Moyles Ghost inover the past few months, i have been researching the wt society's doctrines and history.
in doing so, i have tried to use as little so-called "apostate" material as possible.
this is because (as we are all aware) witnesses are taught to fear apostate literature, and if i ever hope to enlighten any of my loved ones, i am not going to be able to do so by waving a copy of coc in their faces.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Over the past few months, I have been researching the WT Society's doctrines and history. In doing so, I have tried to use as little so-called "apostate" material as possible. This is because (as we are all aware) Witnesses are taught to fear apostate literature, and if I ever hope to enlighten any of my loved ones, I am not going to be able to do so by waving a copy of CoC in their faces. I agree that the Society's paranoia re: "apostate" literature is absurd, but the fact of the matter is that most doubting JWs are still afraid of it. So, when I raise an issue, I like to have a neutral/unbiased source to back me up.
I have found that some of the best sources for interesting facts about the Society/Rutherford/etc. are the old court cases. I have downloaded the Moyle case and the Scottish case from lulu.com. The Moyle case is fantastic. The testimony paints an interesting picture of the Judge. For example, how JFR was only a judge for 4 days, how he had an air-conditioned penthouse + a house on Staten Island + a house on the farm + Beth Sarim. There's also some discussion of JFR's post-Russell power play. You also have Fred Franz stating that Jehovah is the editor of the Watchtower. It's good stuff.
Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone has an electronic copy of the transcript of the Rutherford trial. I noticed that someone has put together a summary. That is helpful, but I would prefer to have a copy of the actual transcript. If anyone has an electronic copy or knows how to get one, I'm all ears (as Ross Perot said).
Thanks. -
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The cry of "Peace and Security"
by Olin Moyles Ghost inanyone who has been associated with the witnesses for any period of time is familiar with 1 thess.
5:2 - "whenever it is that they are saying: peace and security!
then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
Anyone who has been associated with the Witnesses for any period of time is familiar with 1 Thess. 5:2 - "Whenever it is that they are saying: “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape." (NWT).
A few years ago (I think between 2001-2005) there was a district convention part in which the speaker hinted at the possibility that the cry of peace and security had already taken place. I believe he may have mentioned the 1986 U.N. "year of peace" but I'm not positive. (I've never been too good at paying attention at assemblies/conventions). Anyway, that talk created quite a stir among the friends, and I still hear JWs say that the cry of peace and security may have already been made.
Have any of you guys heard this nonsense? Even when I more-or-less believed the Witness theology, I didn't buy into this interpretation.
One more thing, a few months ago, a Witness friend told me that there is a page on the United Nations website entitled "peace and security." My response was "umm...ok." This individual was beside herself in excitement over the name of a web page on the U.N. site. It's sad to see decent people who are so misled. If I had known about it at the time, I would have directed her to this U.N. web page: http://www.un.org/dpi/ngosection/pdfs/watchtower.pdf. -
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What was it that "clicked" w/ you that this wasn't the "true religion"?
by cognac infor me, it was not being able to prove that people were going to be resurrected to earth... i'm still not sure of the answer, but for some reason that just started this huge, fast snowball of different things that i couldn't prove... .
this lightbulb just went off in my head... .
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Olin Moyles Ghost
For me, it was the response put out by the Society's PR department following the settlement of the child sex abuse cases in 2007. I'm sure most of you have seen it; for those that have not, it is here: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/Sections/TVNews/Nightly%20News/2007/11-Nov/statement.pdf
The deception in that statement appalled me. In particular, the Society seemed to be minimizing the problem of child sex abuse in the congregations by only mentioning *civil* lawsuits (as opposed to criminal charges) against *elders,* not MS, pioneers, and the like. Child sex abuse is a *criminal* matter, and most victims don't even report the crime to the police, and of those that do, most don't file civil lawsuits. Further, as a lifelong JW, I realize that the culture of not wanting to "drag Jehovah's name through the mud" and fear of being DF'd for slander or immorality has silenced many victims. Thus, the Society was taking advantage of the results of its explicit and/or implicit policies to make itself look good. This is not what "true religion" does.
I could not fathom how God's One True Organization could be so coldly and calculatingly deceptive. And, of course, the press release had its intended effect. The few witnesses that even know about the settlements use the press release and the October 2007 Awake to reassure themselves that the Society and Organization are "clean." -
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Armando Montelongo from A&E's "Flip This House" -- Ex-Witness?
by Olin Moyles Ghost inif any of you have watched the a&e show called "flip this house," you have probably seen armando montelongo.
if you haven't, here's the cliffs notes version of the show: armando and his wife (and last season, his brother and his wife also) buy run-down houses in san antonio texas and "flip" them...hopefully for a profit.
hijinks ensue and the a&e network films it.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
If any of you have watched the A&E show called "Flip this House," you have probably seen Armando Montelongo. If you haven't, here's the Cliffs Notes version of the show: Armando and his wife (and last season, his brother and his wife also) buy run-down houses in San Antonio Texas and "flip" them...hopefully for a profit. Hijinks ensue and the A&E network films it. I will refrain from giving my opinion on the guy, other than to say he's quite a character.
Anyway, I have heard a rumor that the Montelongos used to be Witnesses. I have never seen anything on the show that gave me an indication one way or another. He curses a lot, but so do a lot of the Witnesses I know.
Anyone on this board know if there's any truth to this rumor?
Sincerely,
Olin Moyle's Ghost (of the "spreading rumors on the Internet" class) -
Olin Moyles Ghost
When I saw this thread I pictured this variation on an exchange between Peter and the 2 Bobs from the movie Office Space:
Bob the Elder: So, Brother Ghost, it looks like you've been missing a lot of meetings lately.
Me: Well, I wouldn't say I've been *missing* them, Bob. -
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The night I decided my C.O. was an apostate
by Olin Moyles Ghost inthe following took place several years ago in a congregation in the united states.
we had this circuit overseer who was a real piece of work.
40-ish mts grad, i believe.
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Olin Moyles Ghost
"Apostate" is such a loaded word, isn't it? I always thought of it as a dirty word...not so much like a four-letter obscenity, but more like a racial/ethnic slur. So, when I used it to describe the C.O. that night, it was with some trepidation.
I should probably clarify that I do not currently think that C.O. is an apostate in the way the WTS uses that word. In fact, I'm sure the WTS considered this fellow a company man. However, that night I was so repulsed by what he taught from the platform, that the word "apostate" was the most vile epithet I could come up with.
Thank you for reading my story.